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Post by Jerrymac on Apr 7, 2010 1:24:37 GMT -5
Man that sucks. Sorry to see that. At least the damage doesn't look too bad. It seemed to sound kinda lazy with those little 1800mah batteries in it, but sounded much better on the second flight before it went down. Hope you get it back in the air soon.
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Post by dunkonu23 on Apr 7, 2010 1:43:36 GMT -5
Ivan... wow! Sorry to see that. I read the reason over on RCU. Man, it does suck, though. I ground flats on my Z30 to stop that from happening, but I had it happen on my BH500. I'm glad you're taking it extremely well, though! LOL! Watching it over and over just for the bounce! Scott
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Post by 9sec240 on Apr 11, 2010 11:53:54 GMT -5
I got the 425 fixed. Bent the flybar back into place, replaced a servo arm and put a new set of blades on it. The 425 flies great!! I spent some time yesterday getting it tweaked in to my liking. Hopefully get some vid of it soon.
Got the canopy and started to sticker it up. Only problem.. the canopy wont fit over the motor!! The Align 500L is too tall. Arggg....
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Post by 9sec240 on Apr 11, 2010 20:52:11 GMT -5
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Post by 9sec240 on Apr 11, 2010 23:34:59 GMT -5
So I really want to run this Gaui canopy. Anybody got a line on a good cheap motor to put in this thing that will clear the canopy?
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Post by dunkonu23 on Apr 11, 2010 23:59:08 GMT -5
Dunno, Ivan. I had to cut my canopy on my 550 to make it fit my Z30A. As far as cheap motors go, I really don't know. I would think anything in the 1400-1700kv range would work as long as it clears the bell cranks.
Scott
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Post by Jerrymac on Apr 12, 2010 1:33:02 GMT -5
Ivan, I am using the Tonic-X Z20-1470 kv in my 425 and it easily clears the stock canopy. You can get it pretty reasonable at HeliDirect. You might wanna hurry though if you want one as they currently have only one left. Part # TX 201470. www.helidirect.com/brushless-motors-tonicx-c-1_44_386.hdx
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Post by dunkonu23 on Apr 12, 2010 10:38:22 GMT -5
TonicX' motors are good, Ivan... I'd snap it up.
Scott
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Post by 9sec240 on Jun 23, 2010 22:35:45 GMT -5
OK guys, I have some observations and some possible questions to bounce off you guys.
I have been working hard at getting the Gaui 500 dialed in. First, here are some things I observed while flying it:
Positive collective is very strong. Punchouts are awesome. After lots of playing around trying to dial in flip rates, I ended up with KBDD 500 sized paddles on the back hole of a Trex 600 flybar. The head is set up on the most aggressive positions. I kept turning the cyclic down till the head speed would not drop a significant amount when flipping. Flips were slow and smooth. During FF, banked corners seemed over aggressive. I ended up adding a lot of expo on AIL and ELE to compensate.
Today I decided to measure the pitch ranges. First I found the pitch was a little positive at mid stick which made sense to me... I had noticed that the Gaui seemed to lift off a bit early. I believe this pitch shift happened when I made the adjustments to the more aggressive positions on the head. I never checked or adjusted anything after that. I got that sorted out and checked collective pitch range. I now had +/- 10°. I believe that prior to the adjustments pitch was lopsided towards positive. If I were to guess, it was probably +11° / -9°. I may increase the collective pitch range next time I fly it to get +/- 11°.
Next I measured cyclic pitch on ELE. I was pretty surprised to see it was only 5 1/2°. This certainly explains why it flips so slow. When I checked cyclic pitch on AIL, I was even more surprised to find that it was WAY over 5 1/2° despite having the same number in the swash mix. I ended up adjusting both ELE and AIL for 6° and ended up with -41 on AIL and +50 on ELE. You would think those numbers should be somewhat close right?
I have noticed this on other helis I have set up. Some of them are perfect with the same number on both and some take different numbers. Quite odd indeed.
I will probably remove some of the expo I added (I think I am at 25%) and hopefully give it a test flight tomorrow.
So what do you guys have for your swash mix numbers? Have you measured your cyclic pitch?
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Post by Jerrymac on Jun 24, 2010 0:24:28 GMT -5
Ivan, I have been doing some tinkering with both of mine the last couple days doing some gear changes and set-up changes. I haven't flown either of them yet, so don't know how they will fly, but here is basically what I ended up with. Keep in mind that I am using a DX7 so your numbers might be different depending on what radio you are using.
On the 425 +/- 11 degrees pitch 7 degrees cyclic pitch on ail and elev Swash mix settings; AIL +50% ELEV +56% PIT +60%
On the 550 +/- 11 degrees pitch 7 degrees cyclic pitch
Swash mix settings AIL +50% ELEV + 50% PIT +62%
Not sure why the difference in the ELEV mix as they are both the basic plastic framed versions, and both have the same cyclic servos on them. Just different servo wheels.
It could be that I have a "lazy" elevator servo on the 425. When originally setting up the head, the flybar paddles were dead level at O pitch, but at full positive and full negative the paddles moved a little off of being level. I had to adjust the ELEV servo travel limits to get the paddles to stay level at all pitch ranges. I did not have to change the travel adjust on the AIL or PIT servos to keep the paddles level at full positive and negative pitch.
Not sure if this helps you any.
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Post by 9sec240 on Jun 24, 2010 7:53:23 GMT -5
Jerry, thanks for the reply. It is pretty odd that swash mixes end up skewed like that on one heli and just fine on the other. I might have to get a servo checker and start figuring out if there are differences in servos and how that affects the swash mix.
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Post by dunkonu23 on Jun 24, 2010 13:07:45 GMT -5
Here's mine:
Pitch +-11 Cyclic +-7.5
Swash mix: AILE -68 ELEV +78 PIT +75
You know, I never really worried about the disparity. I put it down to things like the mixing ratios, and even paralax view when looking at a pitch gauge. On one Smacktalk RC video, I think Bert's swash mix was far from equal.
I get equal pitches two ways. 1. Adjust links (I don't have the stock links anymore on the servo to Swash) until it's really close. Then I level the swash and check again. Usually, it's spot on. 2. If it's not equal and the swash is level, I use endpoints to make the ranges equal by adjusting the endpoint equally, 2 clicks at a time. If it's short high, I adjust up. If it's short low, I adjust down. I know that's probably against the norm, but it works for me.
Scott
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Post by 9sec240 on Jun 24, 2010 18:34:36 GMT -5
My motor came in today. Just taking a quick second to post up while the soldering iron gets hot!! HOORAYYYY
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Post by 9sec240 on Jun 24, 2010 22:27:39 GMT -5
So I got my latest order from Hobby King today. I have been really anxious because it contained the new motor for my Gaui 500. I picked up a Turnigy 500 H 3126 1300KV. I wanted to replace the Align 500L 1600kv motor. I wanted the lower kv to have a wider selection of gearing options. According to the Gaui head speed calculator, I was geared for 2277 RPMs with the Align motor and actually tached the heli at 2300 RPMs. I changed my OWB from 19T to 20T and my front main gear from 60T to 50T and the head speed calculator said I should be 2337 RPMs with the 1300kv motor. Dimensionally the Turnigy is the same size as my Scorpion 3026-1600kv motor. Interesting that it is named the 3126-1300kv. LOL. I rushed home to get the motor installed and gearing changed and headed out to give the heli a rip. I turned my timer down from 5 min to 4 min to get a gauge on how long I could fly without risking the batteries. First up was my 2500mAh 6S. Right away I noticed a significant increase in head speed.... so much that I actually needed to turn down the gain on the gyro. I would have adjusted the throttle curve but Align ESCs have an issue with anything around or above 90% throttle. At 90% or greater, it just goes to 100% Any throttle curve that crosses over the 90% mark causes a surge to 100% throttle. My F2 throttle curve is 100% flat and my F1 curve is 90-80-90 which keeps me out of the surge line. My F1 curve seemed a tad too slow so I flew the pack in F2. It had great power and the flip and roll rate was pretty quick with no bogging. After the flight, the motor was pretty hot... probably just as hot as the Align motor would get. The battery seemed pretty taxed but this is an old A Plus that is puffed pretty bad. After the motor cooled down, I put my Hyperion 2200mAh VX G3 6S battery in. The heli flew great. Lots of power, great flip and roll rate, no bogging... till just about the 4 min mark. I did a flip and the head speed just dropped. I brought it in and landed right away as the timer was counting down. I just recharged both batteries which took right at about 2000mAh. 4 min flight using 2000mAh with the Turnigy versus 5 min flights using about 1800mAh with the Align. Wow.. BIG difference. I will have to tach the heli and figure out how much of an increase in head speed it has gotten from the new motor. Attachments:
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Post by dunkonu23 on Jun 25, 2010 4:19:28 GMT -5
So I got my latest order from Hobby King today. I have been really anxious because it contained the new motor for my Gaui 500. I picked up a Turnigy 500 H 3126 1300KV. I wanted to replace the Align 500L 1600kv motor. I wanted the lower kv to have a wider selection of gearing options. According to the Gaui head speed calculator, I was geared for 2277 RPMs with the Align motor and actually tached the heli at 2300 RPMs. I changed my OWB from 19T to 20T and my front main gear from 60T to 50T and the head speed calculator said I should be 2337 RPMs with the 1300kv motor. Dimensionally the Turnigy is the same size as my Scorpion 3026-1600kv motor. Interesting that it is named the 3126-1300kv. LOL. I rushed home to get the motor installed and gearing changed and headed out to give the heli a rip. I turned my timer down from 5 min to 4 min to get a gauge on how long I could fly without risking the batteries. First up was my 2500mAh 6S. Right away I noticed a significant increase in head speed.... so much that I actually needed to turn down the gain on the gyro. I would have adjusted the throttle curve but Align ESCs have an issue with anything around or above 90% throttle. At 90% or greater, it just goes to 100% Any throttle curve that crosses over the 90% mark causes a surge to 100% throttle. My F2 throttle curve is 100% flat and my F1 curve is 90-80-90 which keeps me out of the surge line. My F1 curve seemed a tad too slow so I flew the pack in F2. It had great power and the flip and roll rate was pretty quick with no bogging. After the flight, the motor was pretty hot... probably just as hot as the Align motor would get. The battery seemed pretty taxed but this is an old A Plus that is puffed pretty bad. After the motor cooled down, I put my Hyperion 2200mAh VX G3 6S battery in. The heli flew great. Lots of power, great flip and roll rate, no bogging... till just about the 4 min mark. I did a flip and the head speed just dropped. I brought it in and landed right away as the timer was counting down. I just recharged both batteries which took right at about 2000mAh. 4 min flight using 2000mAh with the Turnigy versus 5 min flights using about 1800mAh with the Align. Wow.. BIG difference. I will have to tach the heli and figure out how much of an increase in head speed it has gotten from the new motor. I'm happy for you, Ivan. Are you worried about the battery drain? Scott
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Post by 9sec240 on Jun 25, 2010 7:35:40 GMT -5
Scott, I am very much concerned about the battery drain. I have a feeling that the motor is not 1300kv as Turnigy indicated. I have more gearing options to get it slowed down though.
Any idea if they measure kv with the motor flying a heli or just free running it?
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Post by dunkonu23 on Jun 25, 2010 17:42:51 GMT -5
I have no idea, Ivan. I think they calculate rating. Then again, there's always motor efficiency to take into account. I know my stock Gaui 1100Kv motor ruined batteries in 3:30. Puffed them badly. Of the four motors I've had in my Gaui, the TonicX was the easiest on batteries. Apples to apples, though... the 1100kv Scorpion was 30 seconds harder on batteries than the TonicX was with identical gearing. So, 6 minutes with the Scorpion vs 6:30 with the TonicX. So, it seems one manufacturer's 1100Kv is not the same as the other's. I haven't tried the TonicX with the gearing I'm using now but if it's any indication times are down to 4:30. So, I think you're on the right track with gearing, but I'm concerned your flip and roll rate may not be acceptable to you with lower head speed. Then again, 3300 kv batteries may be the trick if you can fit them and CG works out.
Scott
Scott
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Post by 9sec240 on Jun 25, 2010 21:19:11 GMT -5
I hooked each motor up to my Eagle Tree and got a motor RPM from each at 100% throttle spinning freely. The Align 1600kv turned a max of 38,467 RPMs while the Turnigy turned 45,871. Those numbers indicate to me that the Turnigy is a higher kv motor... right? With battery voltage around 25V, that would put the Align 1538kv and the Turnigy over 1800kv. On the old setup (Align 1600kv) the Gaui head speed calculator suggested a 2277 RPM head speed and it tached right at 2300 RPMs. Using the calculator for the new setup (Turnigy 1300kv) I geared it for 2337 RPMs. I did not have anybody to tach the heli today so I put the Eagle Tree on it using 11.73:1 gear ratio given by the calculator and 6 poles, I got a max of 3465 RPMs in a hover!!! Using the 1835kv I got from my earlier calculations on the Turnigy motor, the Gaui head speed calculator suggests a head speed of 3299 RPMs. This is right in line with actual head speed. I think they horribly mislabeled the kv of this motor. For those that were asking. I sport fly and am just getting into more aggressive 3D. The reason for the motor change were for more gearing options, more power / torque and a shorter length can to fit the proper canopy. The lowest gearing that Gaui offers for this heli will put my head speed a bit over 2600 RPMs. I am swinging 500 mm CF blades on the stock plastic grips. I am shocked the heli did not blow apart at nearly 3500 RPMs!!! Attachments:
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Post by 9sec240 on Jun 25, 2010 22:15:35 GMT -5
I just pulled the Turnigy motor and counted poles. I was off. The motor has 8 and I inputted 6 in the Eagle Tree. I will be retesting.
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Post by 9sec240 on Jun 25, 2010 23:08:22 GMT -5
I just redid the test and it turns out it was not as excessive as I had thought. It looks like the motor is 1425kv instead of 1300kv and head speed was right about 2600 RPMs.
I do have gearing to get me to around that 2300 RPMs I had been flying with the Align motor. I am hoping I can get back my flight time. I went from flying 5 min and using 80% to flying 4 min and using 90%. Could 300 RPMs change things that much or is this motor way less efficient than the Align motor? Hmmm...
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